"You can't innovate a product if you don't innovate the people behind."
In this episode, we are pleased to welcome Ricardo Brito, Innovation Lead at Doodle. Originally, the Portuguese native wanted to be a horror film director, but as what often happens, things turned out differently. Today, as Innovation Lead at Doodle, Ricardo's innovation focus does not only rely on Doodle's products and services, but also on the people working and innovating in the industry. In this casual exchange, it's all about attitudes, culture, and people. We learn why Ricardo sees "fear" as one of the biggest barriers to innovation, but also why successful innovation starts with people. Plus, Ricardo gives us valuable advice on how to stay in a continuous state of innovation. Curious to hear more? Then tune in!
Below you will find the full transcript for the episode.
People first: Innovating the individual
Chris: Hi and welcome back to Innovation Rockstars. My name is Chris Mühlroth and in this episode, I am very much looking forward to welcoming Ricardo Brito. With more than 10 years of experience as Design and Product Leader, Ricardo is now Innovation Lead at Doodle. And along the years, he has coached and supported many teams to become more user-centric, but not only through theory, but especially through hands-on projects. Thanks much for joining us.
Ricardo: Thank you so much for the invitation, Christian, and for the invitation from ITONICS to join this podcast. I feel honored. It's a pleasure to be here and very looking forward to our nice talk.
Chris: Perfect. So let's do this. Let's kick this off, as always, with a 60-second introduction sprint. Now this introduction sprint is all about you. It's about your career and your current role. So for the next 60 seconds, the stage is all yours. Let's go!
Ricardo: Well, I started my career as a graphic designer and did a lot of branding and interior design and covered all this communication and branding aspects of design. And then I went over to UX design and product development, Discover service design. Within these last years, I've been working a lot also with leadership, creating new products and helping organizations to transform themselves. And right now at DUDO, what I've been doing in the last two years, almost three, was building the design capabilities and the design chapter and then moving now more recently into a more innovation and internal innovation field. Yeah, and maybe through today, I might disclose a little bit more of what I do in practice. That will be my under 60-second pitch.
Chris: Thank you. Okay. So next, I have three sentence starters for you and I would like you to complete those sentences. So let's see. Number one: The best thing about living in Berlin is...
Ricardo: ...nobody cares how about you or the way you look.
Chris: Okay, great answer. Number two: I chose a career in design because...
Ricardo: I didn't. Actually, it was an accident. I wanted to be a horror movie director. That thing didn't went so well and I was already doing graphic design.
Chris: Horror movie director versus graphic design. Now that's an interesting career path. Well, this is how things go. Okay. Number three: One thing every innovator needs to know is...
Ricardo: ...your ego is your worst enemy. Your ego is your worst enemy.
Innovation across industries: Fear, quality, and regulation
Chris: Oh, I can feel you. All right. Thank you. So let's talk about business for a moment. Ricardo, you are, as I learned, a designer by heart with a strong focus on topics such as service design, strategy, user experience, and so on. I also learned that you worked across different industries, including travel, insurance, media, manufacturing, mobility, e-commerce, fast-moving consumer goods, consumer products, and so on. Now, when we talk innovation, and I know this is a very broad term, but in terms of innovation, what kind of differences and similarities did you experience in all those different industries?
"It is the quality of leadership and the culture it creates and enables that makes or breaks innovation. The quality of decision-making and the promotion of a culture of failure determine the success of a project".
Ricardo: So most of these experiences was when I was at Futurize working with different kinds of customers. It was a lovely time. One of the things that I learned, and I think that is more common in all of them, it's the fear. Fear is at the core of the negative similarities that exist. Fear of change, fear of losing customers, fear of losing the budget, fear of looking bad in front of your boss. Fear, that's what drags back most of these, in all of these industries, to be honest. That's one of the common things that I saw that was blocking innovation, for example. Another thing they have in quality, I know it sounds a bit of a cliché, but the more I believe in that is that also fear is derivative from the culture that you have in the company. So the quality of the leadership, the quality of the decision-making, the quality of the accountability, that drives how innovation can happen or not. And it sounds very cliché, but it's still something that a lot of companies don't solve. In the end, we are emotional beings, and if we are afraid of failing, afraid of losing our jobs, afraid of being shameful, we do not take risks. So I think a lot of this, what I noticed, the similarities of successful projects or not is the quality of the leadership and the culture and safety that is created, to be honest. If we think a little bit more about particular industries, what I noticed is by far e-commerce seems to be the one that innovates faster. It's also one of the most recent ones. They can play much faster. They can test much faster. Apart from supply chain problems, it's an industry that is more keen to experiment. Also compared to, I don't know, automotive or insurances, for example, they operate in less hierarchical cultures, which they tend to be a little bit more flexible to experiment. Surprisingly, what I saw after these two years of pandemic, and I didn't saw that coming, to be honest, is that highly regulated industries like healthcare, it's becoming faster and faster to innovate because either the public services cannot keep up with the services that are needed to be deployed as of now. And therefore, the law opens a little bit more so that companies can take more risks and innovate better. But I've seen a lot more innovation comes from, for example, healthcare providers or in the healthcare space rather than in some other industries that we were talking about before.
Chris: That is very interesting. A follow-up question on that. Why do you think this is the case? Why did highly regulated industries got maybe faster in execution or innovation execution? I mean, sure, the pandemic has accelerated all things digital, right? But all those regulations are still in place, right? So why do you think the speed has increased by a lot for, for example, highly regulated industries?
Ricardo: I think because it's a die or make it or die kind of situation. So for example, a couple of years, there was a lot of buzz about insurance companies. You know, we worked with Allianz and some other companies in the past as well. And like I had a deep dive about why are people not buying insurance? I'm from that generation. Like it took me a long time to buy my first insurance of anything, much longer than my parents. And for example, Germany has a bigger insurance culture. But even within the country, it's such a big insurance culture. People didn't want to buy. The younger they were, they don't want to buy insurance. They don't get it. It's too old school. It's too hard. It's too bureaucratic. So these kind of companies did suffer a little bit. It's like either we innovate and we make it easier and we go around of the regulations and try to make it more user friendly, more, more sexy in a way as well. Because otherwise, who are they selling to? It's like the car industry, right? But people of younger generations, they don't buy cars. So I think it's all in the same level is that the consumer behavior changed. And therefore, I think maybe even with the regulations, they had to change and speed up a little bit to survive.
Innovating at Doodle
Chris: Very interesting. So this is about innovate or die. And I think we'll come back to that in a minute or so. And then now let's look specifically at Doodle. Since joining Doodle in 2019, you've been a design lead and you just recently moved to the role of innovation lead. As far as you can tell right now, how do you yourself and also at Doodle look at innovation? What is your approach? What is your take?
Ricardo: Yeah, to think of moving to this innovation role and from the design side is that I also found myself being at the crossroads of many other departments and many other projects. Maybe because I put myself there or because I still have this consultant still rebe inside of me that of looking at different aspects and not just to focus on just my design box. And that led me to do a lot of other projects and collaborations with other departments that were not related to the design chapter as well. So I think this naturally helping other departments to innovate within or seeing things from another perspective, bringing some service design, some innovation in their thinking made me an enabler within the company for other departments where also my art started to be a little bit more there than on the design side as well. So I don't think personally innovation is a one man's job or is it a single team like a design, an innovation team or an accelerator. It should be part of the company behavior as a DNA. But I think for a lot of companies, you need to walk to that space. It's like growing, right? It's something that you evolve and you learn. So yeah, I think this is not a... It's building this kind of culture, it's building this kind of capabilities internally and also elevating the individuals, which maybe I will go through that a little bit later.
Chris: That's interesting. So would you say or would you argue that innovation today is a core capability at Doodle?
Ricardo: I think it needs to be. I think it's part of it. I think compared to other space, it was a very humble product. It's a product to join people to make barbecues and comes from a publishing house. So there is a lot of the advertisement business there. That's the core of it, right? And this scheduling space in the last two, three years just boomed and exploded. So for more established companies like Doodle, it's a different way to look at it, right? And a lot more knowledge than we had until now and different perspectives that have been evolving within this scheduling space. We didn't start immediately with the next big thing, right? We started completely different.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. And I think your product is being used and loved around the world, right? But I also think, and you just mentioned that, in the past couple of years when we had a push in digitalization and digitalization, competition has also ramped up, right? Many companies are entering the market and, for example, include meeting scheduling features in their software. Take maybe HubSpot as an example, right? So my question to you is, how does your philosophy and your approach on innovation unfold at Doodle when facing that competition?
Challenging the pursuit of shiny innovations
Ricardo: I mean, well, that is a multilayer question there, a multilayer reply there. I think I'm not the only driver there by far. I'm just one piece of the whole organization, right? I think my philosophy is just my philosophy, and I deeply believe that we need to help the individuals thinking differently and creating, helping and creating the spaces for people to experiment and to bring their ideas into the table and to move forward. I think as an established company compared to other companies, I think this idea of unlearning learned until now that maybe are not valid anymore and rethinking. I think that's something that is core to companies that exist and were leaders in the market for a while, and maybe they were visionary, and now the whole space exploded more. So it's the rethinking that might need to be done. And maybe that's the approach is rethinking certain truths that are not truths anymore, certain ways of looking at things that are not anymore. And it is a constant process, both in companies and individuals inside or outside the companies.
"Innovation should not be solely about striving for shiny things; it should be about solving real problems and creating value."
Chris: Yeah, that's a great answer. So we got unlearning and rethinking. And in addition, I guess, prior to the podcast today, you mentioned that, you know, we should think of changing the way we look at innovation. I think you said that we should stop to strive always for the shiny thing. So innovation equals the shiny big stuff. Why do you say that? I mean, you know, after all, isn't it highly motivating and energizing for individuals, teams and organizations to work towards something great, like sharing a joint vision, seeking an ambitious North Star? Why not striving for the shiny thing?
Ricardo: Yeah. So, yeah, let me start to, I don't even know where to start. I think motivation is great. Having a good vision is great. Having a good North Star is great. But I think we also often in our industry, and maybe because I come from a different social background or a different perspective, is that how much of the things are we doing actually value and actually solving a real problem? In our news, there's a big thing, right? So when we, and that's a more philosophical one that I might go into a bit. I think when it comes to terms of North Star, I think there is a lot of, I noticed some of them are just almost a vanity metric. They are not measuring the problem that we are solving. Maybe they are good for the business. Maybe they can show good numbers for the investors or for internally for us to feel good. I'm not talking just, I'm talking about Duda, I'm talking about companies in general. But how much of us in the industry actually measure the impact that we have in the customer? Because maybe if we would have different metric, we might realize that actually the problem that we are solving is not that relevant or we are not solving a big problem. As for the shiny thing, for me, this is a very personal, I think you tend to participate often in projects that you ask yourself or the team asks themselves, why are we doing this? Where is this project coming from? Why are we pursuing this thing that just sounds good as a concept? I don't want to sound a hater here like now, but the whole thing about meta versus the goal is a perfect example. It's a huge disappointment. It's clearly something that companies are investing and putting money towards that and building and did it bring anything actually good? Is it actually something we want? Is it solving any problems? This is a clear example of a huge, buzzy, shiny thing that seems to be the next thing. Are we not even questioning why we are doing, for example? But I'm very critical in the whole industry. So sorry. Take this with a grain of salt.
Chris: Which is fine. Which is perfectly fine. It's really interesting to listen to that and very helpful. So we got unlearning, rethinking and the shiny thing. Now, in addition, if I understood you correctly, you focus a lot on, let's say, transformational coaching of the individual. So focusing on the people. People first. So let's do this. Let's imagine a scenario. So there is an established company and by that I do not mean Doodle. That's just a hypothetical scenario in that case. So there is an established company and at the same time it's an ambitious company that has understood that it's important to be in a continuous state of innovation, re-event itself and so on. Such phrase is innovate or die, just as we discussed it earlier in this episode. Now, and I know this is kind of a big question, but what would you advise to such a company? You know, what are the different steps to enter and stay in a continuous state of innovation, and how could one possibly start?
"Innovation starts with the individual. But maybe you should start with leadership because leadership is the one that sets the tone for the rest."
Ricardo: Yeah, this is a little bit like if you look at the company as a person, we as humans, we learn and we need to face our issues, and we need to look inside ourselves like where are my mistakes? Where is my, you know, the corners that I cannot see? Where is my, where is my, where am I holding back and actually negatively affecting my life, right? At the same time, I also believe that in ourselves we have all the knowledge and all the capabilities to change ourselves with the right direction, with the right tools and with the right people to help us. A company is like that. So when I hear a little bit about advising, I start to change my perspective because I used to be a consultant, right? And there is a lot of advising in consulting. There is a lot of working together but driving to a goal in consulting, which is fine. That's also the role of it. Nowadays, I believe that is more is actually the companies have the knowledge already. The companies have the capabilities, but they are not looking critically inside because the company is a reflection of the people that work there. If the people that work there don't understand how much of themselves are bringing to work and actually the decisions they do, the way they lead, the culture they create is based in their own beliefs, in their own problematics, in their own fears. If they don't tackle that, that will go into transpire to the whole organization. So I think for me, start with the individual. And of course, maybe start with leadership because leadership is the one that sets the tone for the rest. So I think when leaders have the courage and management has the courage to look at themselves how much of my word I cannot say bring here and influence the culture and how much if I change my perspective, if I change my fear, if I actually become more vulnerable and work on myself, how much of that organization this is going to reflect on the organization. Because we go back again to the idea of fear that many companies have, fear of failure, fear of looking back to the boss, fear of not progressing in the career, fear of losing money. And these fears are attached to something else internally. But maybe I'm diverging too much.
Chris: Well, I think you made a very strong argument here that organizations are indeed they are right, a reflection of the people that work in them. Sure you have the processes and all that stuff, but ultimately it's again people making these processes and executing these processes and stuff. So it's about the people. And I guess your argument is that if you want to change, truly change an organization, you have to change the people in the organization first, ideally maybe even top down, starting with leadership, because you have, it triples down to everybody else and the way how they lead and motivate and then also fill certain positions. Otherwise, change won't happen or maybe not the way how you want. So how do you do that? I mean, how do you help change individuals for the better? Is this personality coaching? What's the approach you take?
Ricardo: Well, I'm also figuring out as I go where I am now, right. And I'm building the bringing the pieces that has been working for me in the past. I think there is one level that I do. I do coach individuals on the side that and that we're going to influence where they are working there. Internally, I don't play these almost one on one coaching or anything like that. But I do sit down with the people. I go through the process of coaching with them in a sense, but within specific projects, I try to create the space for them to think and to go through that. And now I'm doing this again on a very individual level, right. I'm just one unit. I think how you can do this systematically. I think yes, I think coaching is a big part of it. Creating the spaces for exploration is a big part of it. I think companies already do some, right. You know, you have the education budgets, you have the courses that you can take and so on. But what I think until now is that there has been in companies a very huge focus on either you need to learn hard skills better or and deeper, or you need to work on your soft skills. But this is just skills. What about the attitude? What about the way of thinking? I think that's what companies might need to invest in the future as well in a more systematic way is that what can you offer that will help the person to change internally and not just add skills and skills and skills to their skill list for lack of a better word. Does that make sense for you?
Chris: It makes sense. And this is actually you were talking about not giving too much advice, but that's actually great advice, right. That's good. Yeah, it is right.
Ricardo: And even even, you know, at our company, Atonix, oftentimes when we fill positions or maybe are the recruiting, we often look for attitude above experience or even attitude above skills, for example. Because that's something you can gain experience and you can learn skills and stuff. But attitude is a hard thing to change oftentimes. So that's why we oftentimes place attitude at the top.
Driving innovation through change and collaboration
Chris: Now OK, we got all that. But you know, I'm pretty sure you came across one of the most common struggles in organizations like let's say resistance to change, lack of transparency, integrity, followership and the like. I guess these are really hard problems to tackle. When you connect this to what you just said earlier, how can one deal with that, with those common struggles? How to start?
Ricardo: Yeah, that's a tough one. Those are tough ones. I think, you know, for me, something that was very influential and that was very when I joined Futurize, for example, it was the first time that a company told me you have the trust since day one. It was the first time that I needed to, oh, I don't need to work for my trust. And that changed my perspective. I also have that doodle. I think so for me, and I noticed that for me transparency and integrity, it's a choice. So by being a choice, either you have it or you don't. Either companies have it or you don't. We cannot push somebody to work and to behave with integrity. We cannot push somebody to be transparent because if they don't, it needs to come from the individual. So that's a tough one. I think the culture itself needs to, and the environment itself needs to allow that for the people who are transparent and act with integrity to have better results and to kind of try to avoid people who are having manipulative behavior or can hold within information. So I think creating a more open culture and that can take many shapes and forms. And it's a problem now with the remote. I think actually remote is an advantage, by the way, on being more transparent. I think that's one. On the resistance to change, that's a hard one. That's the one that we face more. And that's the one that we could potentially help more. But again, if companies don't want to change, that will never happen. At my times when I was consulting companies, I mean, yes, it's the third time that you hire consultants to do a project for you. It's the third time that three different agencies tell you the same and can do three different approaches, and you don't want to change. How far can we go there? It's a matter of resistance. So if people don't want to change and don't want to take the risks, things cannot happen. And I mean, I don't want to touch too much on the political situation at now. But right now we have a good leader who does not want to change, who's married to his beliefs, to a particular outcome, even in the face of reality. And we cannot force that kind of change. The same happens in companies. I mean, I know it sounds a bit aggressive, but it's a bit the same. Many companies, oh, I don't want to hear that. Tell me something different. If the companies and the leaders in those companies, they don't want to change, change will not happen. You will leave a trail of burned out people. We will leave a trail of high turnover because the people who can actually enable the change are too afraid of doing so.
Chris: Yeah, totally. And we see this a lot, or we hear this a lot with organizations that are rather successful at the moment. So they say, well, you know what, the business model is great, making a lot of money. The demand is good, market is good. Why should we even think about starting to change? Why should we even think about starting to innovate? Because hey, business is great. And then five and 10 years down the road, basically they get the bill for that because, oh, geez, revenue is going down and everybody's asking, hey, how could this happen? We were maybe an industry leader, and now we're facing bankruptcy. So I guess it's really hard to actually at the time when business is going great, still tell people and convince people, hey, you need to prepare for change. You need to enter a constant state of innovation, of change, of doing things better, not necessarily running for the shiny thing, but still be in a state of constant innovation, even if you're doing really good. But I guess that's a tough conversation, right?
"It's really hard to tell people and convince them, 'Hey, you need to prepare for change' at a time when business is going great."
Ricardo: It is a tough conversation. And sometimes you can do it to a successful project and some sort of organizational transformational project that leads the example. And you can try to provide data at certain point to also help on those decisions. But ultimately, it's like, it's ultimately, I think in the end, we go back to the, I think I start to see the fear is a big topic.
Chris: I think I agree. And now when changing the individual or when innovating the individual, when you work with them, how can you sense or maybe even measure that at least things are going in the right direction? Yeah. Is there any, I don't know, milestones? What are some of the observations you can make?
Ricardo: They say, okay, well, now this is going into the right direction. Let's accelerate. Let's continue. One thing about the individual is they say it by themselves. I'm not one to judge. They need to, that's why it's a transformational side is just because it happens a transformation within them by themselves. And we all have this, I mean, sometimes we need a coach. Sometimes we have these moments also by ourselves when you are in life and you go like, oh, wow, okay, now I see it. When there is a switch, you advanced a little bit in your knowledge, right? So that's a positive advancement. That's an indicator that something changed. I think in business, of course, the business numbers talk, usage, revenue, but I think also the human capital, like the human behavior, like how engaged is the team? How happy is the team? Does the team feel that they are doing progress even if they do work that nobody sees? You know, I think those are all indicators that something is going in the right direction.
Chris: Yeah, they certainly are. And now finally, when moving from the individual, let's say to a group of individuals, right, to the team, and you mentioned it before, innovation is not one person's show, right? Innovation is mainly teamwork. How do you then go from innovating the individual from within and all the advice you gave earlier, how do you then break down silos, speak the same language and move entire teams towards a common innovation goal?
Ricardo: Yeah, well, breaking down silos, this can come in two ways because there are different kinds of silos in my perspective. One there are organizational silos, they are there by design. And those are there by design, you can say you have multiple teams working in conflictive goals, maybe cannibalizing each other, you know, that's one type of silo that is organizational. Another type of silo, which can also be combined with that, is the human silos and the personal problems and the personal challenges. I think one thing, for example, that service designers are very good at, and we often do, is to bring those silos to the surface. When you look at the organization, when you talk to everybody, when you try to understand how the pieces fit together, and you start to see, look, this is what's happening in the organization. These teams are conflicting, these teams because of this goal or that goal or this is by design, by accident, but by design. And then it's part of the leadership and part of the company to change maybe the company structure to change the process in order to encourage collaboration and rethink OKRs and all of that. Now, the teams itself, if there is a personal problem, which I also had in the past, me as well and learned a lot with that, is it's often we don't see eye to eye and we start creating these stories in our heads and we start externalizing these things. And especially in remote environment, this can happen really fast because you see these persons like in snapshots. You don't have bonding, you don't have nothing. So there is a lot of lack of communication. People communicate differently, have very different skills in communication. I think, for example, on the individual and team level, a lot of it boils down to different levels of communication. And as well, working in so many international companies, I start to understand now the culture plays a big role. Working with Finnish people is completely different than working with Germans and working with Portuguese people and are working with Japanese. The cultural background is really influential.
The secret sauce for successful innovation culture
Chris: Very true, very true. So Ricardo, we've come a long way and there was a lot of great advice from you. So maybe, you know what, let's summarize. Taking all of what we discussed in our conversation, what are the three key takeaways you want listeners to take away from this episode?
"How can you make a new product or innovate in a company if you don't innovate the way you think?"
Ricardo: Yeah, think. So the first one is think the journey of companies like the journey of a person, of self-discovery, of self-improvement and understanding what they have inside. Companies are made of people and the people in them. And the limitations, the fears, the internal issues that we have as individuals reflect at work. So if you work in your individual, you will create a better workplace. And if you look as well to your company from a lens, if this was a person, how could we make this person better? How could this person get better by itself? How would you go about it? What kind of support would you seek? That's maybe one. I think, again, maybe slightly redundant, but you can't innovate a product if you cannot innovate in your mindset. How can we create new things if we think the same way, believe the same things, and we don't overcome certain challenges? So you need to look for ways to facilitate the change in your mind. Because how can you make a new product or innovate in a company if you don't innovate the way you think? And it's not about a new template and a new work way and a new framework and so on. That is going to solve the issue. Because you're always going to look for the same things over and over again, but just in different formats. And the last one is just, yeah, be kind and be mindful. We need more kind and mindful people in this industry to create the right type of environments for us to flourish. And I know it sounds very basic and very new agey, but it's like the difference of being kind makes such a difference in the workplace. And being kind creates a safer workplace that creates a place where people want to experiment and can fail and it's going to be fine because I'm going to feel welcome and respected and safe.
Chris: Yeah, you certainly got a point there. Okay, thanks for the three key takeaways. Now let's look into the future for a second. Let's look ahead. Ricardo, what can we expect from you in the future?
Ricardo: That's a very good question. I don't know. I think after the pandemic and the current state of the world, that's a question that I even have less answers to now. I think what I would like to keep doing, and I would try to do this, is to continue to facilitate individuals to evolve their mindset, to support leaders overcome their issues in order to create better organizations. At Doodle, continuing to do the work that I've been doing and work further as the organization grows and try to develop the new generation or continue to develop the new generation of scheduling for Doodle. And I think in the long run, maybe in a very... I would like to work with small businesses as a long-term goal. And I do work here and there with micro businesses that need to ensure their survival. And I think for a lot of big companies, it's easy to innovate or it's easy to pour money, and even if they are innovator dying kind of scenario. But micro businesses who are just made of regular people, they're paying the bills, going home to their families and having still a door open and having small businesses, mom and pop shop, whatever format you have. I think they also deserve a little bit of our attention and innovation for them means something different and has a different weight. So I think also my heart is a bit there and maybe you're going to see me there in the future. Maybe let's see.
Chris: All right. And then finally, now let's look back. Let's look back on your professional career. Ricardo, what would you say was your greatest innovation frog star moment so far?
Ricardo: By far the creation of the IoT Service Kit with Paul Hoechten, my dear friend and lovely colleague, engineer at Futurize in that sense, because at that point there was no methodology, not that we knew for designers to create and ideate IoT services. And this combination, violent combination between me as a designer and a very hardcore engineer with a huge passion for board games came out this open source tool that we came to realize that was quite useful for many people. And it changed at least in certain circles how people were thinking about designing for IoT.
Chris: Which is a brilliant rock star moment. All right. And with this, we wrap up this episode. Ricardo, it was a pleasure to listen to you and to your advice, actually. Thanks for being my guest.
Ricardo: Thank you, Christian, for the invitation. It was a lovely talk. I hope you take something, somebody takes something from this. It's not me just blabbering.
Chris: Thank you so much. I'm pretty sure I loved it. And to everybody listening or watching, if you like the show, then leave us a rating or a review and share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And if you want to get in touch, simply shoot us a message at info@innovationrockstars.show. Now that's it. Thanks for your time. See you in the next episode. Take care and bye bye.
About the authors
Dr. Christian Mühlroth is the host of the Innovation Rockstars podcast and CEO of ITONICS. Ricardo Brito is Innovation Lead at Doodle.
The Innovation Rockstars podcast is a production of ITONICS, provider of the world’s leading Operating System for Innovation. Do you also have an eduspiring story to tell about innovation, foresight, strategy or growth? Then shoot us a note!
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